The wedding was incredible, easily the best day of my life. The honeymoon was a continuation of just that; 2 weeks in heaven to start off a wonderful marriage. I've got lots to talk about both of those matters, but given the significance of today's date I'm going to talk about one particular thing that happened while we were off on our honeymoon.
We were returning to our hotel one night and as we got out of the cab and walked to the entrance of the hotel a young guy (I'd say late 20s) holding a drink came up alongside me and said "hey pal." I looked at him at which point he said "I thought you were Osama's brother." I ignored him and walked away.
Now I was born in this country, I'm a U.S. citizen, I pay my taxes, I donate to charities, I vote, I contribute to the economy, I love my country and I wouldn't rather move to any other place, yet for the first time in my life I felt foreign than night. I felt unwelcome in the country that I had the right to be in, I had just as much right to be there as the guy who made me feel so very wrong for being there yet because of his one line I felt like I truly didn't belong. I didn't think something like that would bother me so much, after all I'm pretty good about taking things as light hearted as possible, but that one incident struck home.
And I began to wonder, had I just been really lucky since 9/11? Were there more people like him who would see me and based on the color of my skin would brand me a terrorist? What made me any less of an American than him? Haven't we been through this before? I thought the civil rights movement brought forth the idea that we can't just single out a group of people based on the color of their skin. For the first time in my life I wanted to leave, I wanted to be at home and I didn't want that home to be here.
It may not seem like much, after all it was just a 5 second interaction with some drunk jerk; drunk people say things all the time, get over it right? Well I am over it, but that isn't to say that I'm afraid of something like that happening again. I've said it before, that it all boils down to education and understanding of people and cultures other than our own.
Muslims don't hate Americans, that's just not how things work. My mom is a muslim and she'd never hurt a fly, she cried at 9/11, she donated to the relief fund, she condemned those who did it - just like everyone else. She isn't a fanatic, I'd say she follows the Qua-ran like many people follow the Bible, she doesn't interpret it strictly but she takes it to be a set of morals that she attempts to uphold in her daily life. And to those who don't believe it, must muslims are just like that. They don't walk around with AK-47s plotting ways to attack the West, they lead normal lives and have normal families just like everyone else. I've been to Iran around 5 times now, the only current example of a true Islamic state - did I see people running through the streets plotting to kill Americans? No, I saw normal people doing normal things. Sure their customs are different, but none of those customs include hating Americans. Yet I read through some of the discussions that happen online, even in our own forums, and I'm disgusted. I read statements of people who are clearly ignorant of what they are talking about, attacking people and cultures they don't understand. What if we were all judged by the acts of the D.C. sniper, McVeigh or Dahlmer? Everyone would think that any American was a crazed mass murdering psycho.
As I write this, I'm worried that my point won't get across, that everything I've said here will be dismissed at the hatred will continue. I was just as angry as anyone when the towers fell, I wanted to see someone pay, I wanted revenge - but we must all understand that the revenge isn't against every middle easterner you see. A group of people hated our government, so they took that anger and hatred not out on the government, but on over 3000 innocent people. What sense does it make to attack that group of people by targeting those that honestly have nothing to do with it, some of which are just as American as anyone else in this country.
Today we should all remember the tragedy of 9/11, but we must also remember not to let one tragedy lead us to another one. American doesn't mean white; keep in mind how this country was founded, the melting pot has evolved to include a few new shades but the fact remains the same that we are all Americans. I may not look like everyone else, but I feel the same attachment to this country - please don't make me feel unwelcome.
Take care.
We were returning to our hotel one night and as we got out of the cab and walked to the entrance of the hotel a young guy (I'd say late 20s) holding a drink came up alongside me and said "hey pal." I looked at him at which point he said "I thought you were Osama's brother." I ignored him and walked away.
Now I was born in this country, I'm a U.S. citizen, I pay my taxes, I donate to charities, I vote, I contribute to the economy, I love my country and I wouldn't rather move to any other place, yet for the first time in my life I felt foreign than night. I felt unwelcome in the country that I had the right to be in, I had just as much right to be there as the guy who made me feel so very wrong for being there yet because of his one line I felt like I truly didn't belong. I didn't think something like that would bother me so much, after all I'm pretty good about taking things as light hearted as possible, but that one incident struck home.
And I began to wonder, had I just been really lucky since 9/11? Were there more people like him who would see me and based on the color of my skin would brand me a terrorist? What made me any less of an American than him? Haven't we been through this before? I thought the civil rights movement brought forth the idea that we can't just single out a group of people based on the color of their skin. For the first time in my life I wanted to leave, I wanted to be at home and I didn't want that home to be here.
It may not seem like much, after all it was just a 5 second interaction with some drunk jerk; drunk people say things all the time, get over it right? Well I am over it, but that isn't to say that I'm afraid of something like that happening again. I've said it before, that it all boils down to education and understanding of people and cultures other than our own.
Muslims don't hate Americans, that's just not how things work. My mom is a muslim and she'd never hurt a fly, she cried at 9/11, she donated to the relief fund, she condemned those who did it - just like everyone else. She isn't a fanatic, I'd say she follows the Qua-ran like many people follow the Bible, she doesn't interpret it strictly but she takes it to be a set of morals that she attempts to uphold in her daily life. And to those who don't believe it, must muslims are just like that. They don't walk around with AK-47s plotting ways to attack the West, they lead normal lives and have normal families just like everyone else. I've been to Iran around 5 times now, the only current example of a true Islamic state - did I see people running through the streets plotting to kill Americans? No, I saw normal people doing normal things. Sure their customs are different, but none of those customs include hating Americans. Yet I read through some of the discussions that happen online, even in our own forums, and I'm disgusted. I read statements of people who are clearly ignorant of what they are talking about, attacking people and cultures they don't understand. What if we were all judged by the acts of the D.C. sniper, McVeigh or Dahlmer? Everyone would think that any American was a crazed mass murdering psycho.
As I write this, I'm worried that my point won't get across, that everything I've said here will be dismissed at the hatred will continue. I was just as angry as anyone when the towers fell, I wanted to see someone pay, I wanted revenge - but we must all understand that the revenge isn't against every middle easterner you see. A group of people hated our government, so they took that anger and hatred not out on the government, but on over 3000 innocent people. What sense does it make to attack that group of people by targeting those that honestly have nothing to do with it, some of which are just as American as anyone else in this country.
Today we should all remember the tragedy of 9/11, but we must also remember not to let one tragedy lead us to another one. American doesn't mean white; keep in mind how this country was founded, the melting pot has evolved to include a few new shades but the fact remains the same that we are all Americans. I may not look like everyone else, but I feel the same attachment to this country - please don't make me feel unwelcome.
Take care.
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Mo' likes little girls - Sunday, September 26, 2004 - link
#218I appreciate the enligthening information regarding the laws of yore that allowed pedophilia. I also know that you are only defending your religion and the man (good ole Mo') who started it. Different cultures consider maturity differently. Some believed that once a girl had her period she became of age (obviously thinking reproduction)while others associated a specific age with maturity. Many times this was due to life expentancy in a culture as it is today in third world country where people don't live beyond their mid 20's.
I am less concerned about the ridiculous laws that permitted (or still permit) pedohiplia as I am with a man who created a religion based on misinformation and his own meandering. Heck, if we want to talk about stupid laws, you can't buy milk on Sunday's in some parts of Texas. Is that stupid or what?
I understand culture has a lot to do with the age of marriage but lets face it, many muslims put particular emphasis on their supposed heavenly gifts. To die as a martyr and inherit your own personal brothel? When I die sex is the last thing I want to think about in the after life. I would hope there would be more to look forward to then screwing a bunch of virgins. Sure, it sounds like fun but c'mon we are of flesh to serve a purpose and flesh serves a purpose thus allowing reproduction. Are we to think that we would progress into a spritual life where our desires and needs are based on pleasures of the flesh? Twisted logic here.
I don't agree with many people who place the blame for all terrorism at the hand of Mulims. Take for example the so called *extreme* Christians who kill Doctor's who perform abortions or blow up the clinics. However, this pales in comparison to the HUGE increase in Muslim terrorism. Not one muslim leader or country condemned what happened in Russia. They see their violent cause as righteous and that's the saddest part.
brandoN - Sunday, September 26, 2004 - link
192: "America ... This is THE MOST TOLERANT nation in the world, the most perfect society, the only "proposition nation" - one built not on ties of blood, but on ideological ones. It's tragic that you don't see this."Sorry but every nation has blood involved. You're saying that America's most violent war (their American Civil War) proves that the country hasn't shed their own blood to make it happen?
Secondly, I agree America is rather tolerant compared to most nations, but it seems you're forgetting about Canada or most of Europe. Canada at the last is far more tolerant than the USA. Toronto, the largest city, is 50% ethnic! And no, that's not a bad thing :)
Calpchen - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
Obviously, the American thing to do would have been to grab that guy by his collar and punch him in the face. That's how we take care of things. That's the American way.Anonymous - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
#194: You don't deserved to be call an Indian. I am an Indian and I am living in the US, but that doesn't mean I hate my home country.It's ignorant people like you who can't seem to find good in other countries. Ever wondered why so many US companies are outsourcing to India? I am sure they wouldn't have outsourced to India if it was hell. India produces some of the smartest people in the world.
Just because a country is 3rd world country doesn't make it hell. Just because you are so used to living a in AC and driving AC cars at age 16 doesn't make India hell.
Sure, if you are uneducated you are not going anywhere in India. However, in US you can still be a millionaire even if you have graduated from high school.
What I am trying to say is if you haven't experienced India, don't go criticizing anything. I hope you realize that people will still discriminate against you even if you love US so much.
Basically, you hate India and Americans hate you, so to speak. You are stuck in the middle and no place to go.
I feel sorry for you buddy.
Anonymous - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
“It makes me wonder why Muslims like Anand….”Sorry I would like to correct my above post to “ …People of Muslim origin like Anand…”
Thanks,
Anonymous - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
Did you read the article in this week’s edition of Time about the plight of Christians in Iraq? Take into account the treatment of Christians and Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh, The murder of Christians and burning of churches in Indonesia and Nigeria, or the murder of Christians by the FIS Islamic terrorists in Algeria, or the treatment of the Copts in Egypt, massacre of Hindu pundits in Kashmir, the status of Christians in Syria or the fact that Parsees had to flee Iran to come to India, People are not allowed to practice or propagate other faiths in the Gulf states etc. You find that Intolerance is the rule not the exception in the Muslim world.It makes me wonder why Muslims like Anand should make such a big deal about the comments of a drunk. You Muslims are getting a free ride here compared to what you dish out to non-Muslims in your area of the world.
Anonymous - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
By whatever standards you judge the age of consent, a 9 year old girl is simply not ready for sexual relationship. The need for education is not the primary reason for increasing the age of consent. It is because the psychological devastation such liaisons cause is now well documented in the medical world. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MODERN MEDICINE, THAT SEXUAL EXPLOITATION OF PREADOLESCENT GIRLS HAS A DEVASTATING IMPACT ON THEIR PSYCHE. If old Mo’ did not know this then he is no visionary (His theory of conception is not only ludicrous and unscientific but is so comical that it could find its way into MAD magazine; I suggest you should read that theory, it makes a good laugh).A prophet is supposed be a visionary. I am an atheist, but I do respect the teachings of Jesus and the Buddha because; Jesus preached forgiveness in a society where “a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye” was the order of the day. The Buddha taught equality and respect for all living beings in a cast based society. This is what I call visionary.
But a preacher who took full advantage of an age were minor girls were exploited, to hump around with a 9 year old child is no visionary, but rather a pervert, or more accurately just another cult leader who stole Ideas from Judaism and Christianity, to have his shot at power.
I have read the Torah, the Bible, the Koran and the Buddhist and Hindu scriptures from page to page. Only in the Koran (through the glorification of the life of old Mo’) is pedophilia encouraged. Your statement of the age of Mary at the time of the birth of Jesus is purely based on the Jewish tradition of the time. But there is no SHREAD of evidence as to the actual age of Mary at that time; one could make the argument that Mary married a bit later (this was not uncommon at the time). Also if you consider the Jewish tradition of the time Joseph would more likely have been a young man (remember polygamy was not very common at that age). Any way enough of this hocus pocus story of Mary and Joseph. The bottom like is your statement on the age of Mary is based on assumption, but the age of the girl raped by old Mo’ is “written in stone”.
The life and deeds of Jesus and the Buddha, will measure up to the yardstick of any age; past , present and future. But that of old Mo’ falls short of modern standards (I am not taking into account of old Mo’ as a mass murderer). This ability to measure up to time is why Christianity and Buddhism are able to move on with time, but Islam is stuck in the middle ages.
Elindur - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
Especially to #176 PLEASE READThe age of sexual consent is still quite low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and in Spain they can legally have sex at age 12. (This data comes from the Age of Consent chart, which you can see at: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm)
The Prophet's contemporaries (both enemies and friends) clearly accepted the Prophet's marriage to `Aisha without any problem. We see the evidence for this by the lack of criticism against the marriage until modern times. However, a change in culture caused the change in our times today.
A 40-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old woman may be a "pedophile" in the USA today, but not in China today (where the age of consent is 14), nor in the USA last century. Biology is a much better standard by which to determine these things in my view, not the arbitrariness of human culture.
***** In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. (Source: http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm...
As for the reasons why we age of consent just seems to get higher and higher, Essentially, we need more education just to survive in today's society, and this takes much more time. This additional education we need to function in today's society seems to me to be the main cause of the increase in the age of consent in many 20th century societies. The Common Law age of consent was 10. The French penal code raised the age from 11 to 13 only a century ago. In England, it was only in 1929 (70 years ago) that the ancient Christian minimum age for the marriage of females, which was 12, was abandoned. The early rock and roll singer Jerry Lee Lewis was considerably older than his 13 cousin whom he married in all legality in Arkansas. Since then, the age there has been raised to 16. That marriage lasted for about 15 years and there was never any other "scandal" associated with Jerry Lee Lewis. The story is quite different, however, for his cousin Jimmy Swaggart (the well-known and disgraced tele-evangelist) who married a woman his own age but later publicly confessed that he was an adulterer and a whoremonger.
In the seventh century, 3 year old girls were burned to death or tortured in Europe for copulating with demons, witches and sorcerers. Strong sexual passions were attributed to the youngest children. Even Jean Bodin, one of the greatest legal authorities of his time, said that the appropriate age of consent for a female was 6. (I do not mean to suggest that 3 year olds did in fact have sexual relations with demons. It is however interesting to see that at that time it was publicly believed that child-adult relations were the fault of seductive children who sought out mature men rather than today's popular belief that it is instead pedophiliac adults who prey on innocent, unsuspecting children.)
In the US (an example of a prominent western country, since the west had the greatest effect on the world in the last couple of centuries.) They considered a seven year old female competent on making decisions regarding sex, though it was raised later on (in 1886, after attempts to raise the age of consent, Delaware was the only state to retain the common law age of seven, while twenty five states set the minimum age at a mere ten.) In older times, children were not perceived in the same sense that we perceive them, but the perception was changed gradually, which is due to a great extent to industrialization, and of course sigmund freud and others came along with their theories and supported these changes in social thinking (the word adolescent itself was introduced as recently as 1904.)
Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. The case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETHROED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was "BETHROED" to Joseph. We Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".
This paragraph was sent to me by brother Mike, who embraced Islam recently; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: According to the Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church: "Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus. Joseph, Mary's Husband is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."
According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.
So if I want to be as silly and ridiculous as many of the Christians, I would respond to them by saying that Mary was psychologically and emotionally devastated for getting pregnant at a very young age. And speaking of "child molesting", since most Christians believe that Jesus is the Creator of this universe, then why did GOD allow himself to enter life through a 12-year old young girl's vagina? Please note that we Muslims love and respect Allah Almighty, Mary, Jesus and Allah's Message to the People of the Book (The Jews and Christians). In other words, we Muslims would never make fun of Christianity through such childish topic like this one as many ridiculous Christians do make fun of Islam through our Prophet's (peace be upon him) marriage.
Now here is the part for jewish culture...
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/guido_deime...
A girl must be 12 years old for marriage, but a 3-year old may be betrothed with the father's approval. As for the permissibility of marriage to a minor (katanah) by coition...*Fuggedaboudit!!* as they say in the Mafia. My friend assures me that *humanitarian treatment* is the final authority. If a man did that, that is, had intercourse with a minor for purposes of marriage,it would be considered a crime, even if the father approved. A girl that young would be considered unable to make a momentous decision like that. And even if she were older than 12, if it were done by force, as if she were a Moabite captive, they would be made to divorce once the circumstances were known.
Furthermore, and very importantly, the Jews are *required* to observe the "deen hammalchut"...the laws of the country in which they reside, before applying their own halacha, or laws. So the short answer is, yes, marriage by coition is considered legal, but not with a katanah, and never by force. Betrothal to a katanah is OK, but the bride must reach puberty before actual marriage and consummation. Also, according to my own exceedingly imperfect knowledge, nowhere in the Talmud is betrothal to a minor by intercourse *recommended*. If all this were permissible in the days of the Mishna, well, those days are gone."
maxavier - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
#215, is an orrection like an errection but w/ your mouth? (sry I couldn't resist)Back on subject, next time you should get all melting pot up in that guys face and then kick him in the kidney. You get your deserved revenge on the the dude, and well, another drunk guy would get owned for being a retard. Win-win situation.
Anonymous - Saturday, September 25, 2004 - link
Why don’t Muslims Condemn terrorism? Not even one Muslim leader has come forward and condemned the Russian school massacre. A few of them grudgingly condemned the 911 attacks, but only after it was pointed out in the press that they had not done so.